It gets a little heated, this episode. But I think it’s an interesting discussion. And we really want to know your take on it, so comment below and tell us. Enjoy!
QUESTIONS:
Describe your opinions on cursive handwriting. –Cawfee
LINKS:
Here’s the video we watched between episodes.
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I haven’t finished listening yet, but I’m finding the discussion about attraction/beauty very interesting. I do think there are two separate categories which Will was getting at when he used the word beauty (versus attractive). Like it wouldn’t make sense to talk about a sky being attractive.
So then my follow-up question for Will would be, do you have opinions about the beauty of things like landscapes, skies, paintings, etc., but not of male humans? Or do you also have trouble with aesthetic opinions of things like landscapes, etc.?
And then this also has me thinking about the fact that we talk about beautiful landscapes but not handsome ones, and beautiful sunsets, but not handsome ones. We might talk about a handsome edition of a book, meaning that it was well crafted. Does that mean that beauty has some kind of passive implication of something that just exists? Whereas handsome has to have some kind of intention behind it? Yeah, I think there are some not so subtle sexist connotations lurking among these terms.
I do have opinions about some non-human things in terms of their beauty, but not all non-human things. Some of my opinions about non-human things are that they’re breathtakingly beautiful, some are that they’re disgustingly ugly, and some are somewhere in the middle. But there are tons of things you can show me and ask me if they’re beautiful or ugly to me and I’ll say, “They’re not either thing to me.” And human males fall into that “neither thing to me” category.
AND… for all the things in that “neither thing to me” category, if someone tells me, “I think that thing is beautiful” or “I think that thing is ugly”, I’m not going to understand what they mean. If I did, that thing wouldn’t be in the “neither thing to me” category in the first place.
Now… things can switch categories based upon my experiences. Or someone can tell me why they think something is ugly or beautiful and then I can think, “Hmm… I can see that… so now this thing is (beautiful or ugly) to me, too.” But that’s never happened with human males and I have no reason to suspect it ever will.
Because, apparently, heterosexuality is a real thing. 🙂 (And it’s not just a broken or repressed bi-sexuality! 🙂
I agree that heterosexuality is a real thing and not just repressed bisexuality, but is that really what you’re describing when you say that you don’t have an aesthetic opinion about human males? I still think the discussion is about two fairly distinct categories. I’m able to give opinions about whether I think people of a lot of different ages are pretty/handsome/beautiful (or not) but that doesn’t mean that I’m attracted to those people in any kind of sexual way–that is my sexuality doesn’t preclude my aesthetic judgement.
No, that’s not really what I was describing when I said I didn’t have an aesthetic opinion about human males. That was a lame attempt at a joke. 🙂
(Making reference to something that came up in the podcast conversation… sorry…)
Ah, OK, gotcha.
Idris Elba–I’m with Will in thinking that attraction connects up to some kind of story around the person (and actually I think Tony you’re there too–’cause you talked about your attraction in terms of the video game trailer). Right now I mostly associate Idris Elba with Luther, which freaked me out to the point I had to stop watching so not really attracted to him right now.
I don’t think that means that one is not paying attention to the physical features of a person though–that the “real” person is on the inside (which I never quite understand). People express who they are through their body–their facial expressions, how they move, etc. And for actors, that’s the vehicle they are using to tell a story. So when we find them attractive, the object of attraction is the character that’s being created using the vehicle of the actor’s body.
no opinion versus neutral opinion
In the food X & Y example:
If I have no information, just that there are two food X & Y, then I have no opinion about them.
If I get enough information, I will have an opinion. The information could be verbal–one of the foods is BEETS, Now, I definitely have an opinion. Or it could be tasting them. If I don’t have conclusive information, then I still have no opinion.
If I sample both of them and like both of them equally well, then my opinion is neutral.
Hypotheticals–I’m pretty sure that Will understands hypotheticals like Schrodinger’s Cat or other thought experiments. Maybe he just doesn’t like guessing? If we put Will into a locked box with a cat and a dog, and make the opening of the box dependent on guessing which food X or Y he would like, does he get out of the box? Is the cat alive or dead? Is the dog ugly or attractive? Do the results change with our observation?
😀
I want to say that I don’t mind guessing, because I know I do it all the time, like most people. But it does seem like there are many things I don’t feel comfortable guessing about. I don’t really think of a guess as something you throw out on a whim. I don’t think flipping a coin, for example, can be the basis for a guess. To me, a guess is different from an opinion, certainly, but, like an opinion, it’s based upon some bit of information or it’s positioned in some frame of reference, and if that information or frame are missing, then there’s nothing to base a guess on.
Randomly picking something is neither a guess nor an opinion, as far as I’m concerned. Although I realize just now, as I’m thinking about it, that most of the time a person says, “Just guess,” they probably mean, “Just pick one randomly and say it.” I can’t be sure, of course, but I don’t think that’s ever been what I’ve meant when I’ve said it, but I can see now that’s probably what most people usually mean.
Hm… that explains a few things…
But anyway… So there are some things that I truly don’t think I can guess about, not without feeling deceptive, anyway. Like… at the point of the conversation where I thought I might be able to offer Tony a guess about Elba, that guess would have been, “I guess the guy’s attractive, because he gets cast in certain roles and people who are attracted to men like you, Tony, say he’s attractive.” But what Tony wanted me to guess is what I’d think of him if I was homosexual or bisexual, and to me that’s a totally different thing where I have no basis upon which to hazard a guess. And, I should say, it didn’t seem to me that Tony really wanted me to just pick one or the other randomly… it seemed to me, rightly or wrongly, that he wanted my choice to be based upon something.
Furthermore… I don’t know if this will sound odd or not, but for me there’s even a bit of a political dimension to this. I don’t know anything about what it’s like to be homosexual or bisexual. Is it right for me to speculate about that experience? Of course, Tony would never have asked me, “If you were black, would you be attracted to Idris Elba?” But, to me, the question he asked is almost the same. It’s asking me to imagine having characteristics that I don’t have and that I don’t think I can adequately imagine having. It’s asking me to place myself in a story that I don’t think I can adequately understand. And it feels like it would trivialize the unique experiences of homosexuals and bisexuals for me to do so, as well as being a misrepresentation of my own actual lack of opinion on the matter.
But… I suspect to most people all of that sounds kind of stupid. But it’s what’s going on in my head, so… there it is.
I just don’t worry about it as much, I guess.
You can ask me whether I would be friends with a locust, if I was a trans-dimensional being from the multi-verse, stranded on this planet temporarily in the body of a 5 year old Hispanic girl. I can give you a best guess/opinion. I know (and I hope you know) that it’s almost as likely as random, but I’ll still try and extrapolate, for the sake of conversation.
Because to me, even though it’s not of any real use, given how tenuous it is, it’s still more interesting than “I don’t know” followed by silence.
I tend to take it as read that I have no authority to speak to the experiences of actual members of any of the demographics involved. Though I would hate if someone wasn’t aware of that, I suppose.
When I use the word “attractive,” I think the literal meaning of a quality that magnets is somewhere lurking in the back of my head–so with people I think of someone I might be drawn to and that isn’t necessarily sexually. So for instance, I’m currently binge-watching Parks & Recreation, and I love the character Nick Offerman plays (Ron Swanson). I’m not sexually attracted to him, but I think, he’d be an awesome person to work with ’cause he’s supportive in this kind of funny and non-obvious way. Or the guy on IZombie–the medical examiner–again not sexually attracted to him, but I think, I would love to hang out and be friends with a guy like that.
oops–I with there was an edit button.
“a quality that magnets have is somewhere lurking” is what I meant to say
ATYCHIPHOBIA might be an issue here.
http://elitedaily.com/life/motivation/phobia-failure-dreams/850898/
To live a creative life we must lose our fear of being wrong!
I think I’d go with Tony, there. Sans any information whatsoever (which is probably rare), I suspect I could have no opinion. Having listened to this discussion, I realize I frequently have a neutral opinion, even if they don’t feel worthy of being shared because I’ve extrapolated, as Tony says.
Actually, you both nail it towards the end – guessing is an opinion, I’d say. Even if I formulated an opinion based on knowledge, it could still be as wrong as my guess, ergo it’s no more or less valid an opinion (in terms of purely formulating an opinion). I suppose we have a scale of confidence on which we internally judge our opinions.
Idris is a strapping bloke, I can see why people like him.
Really? I’m listening this on the same day as you’re describing? Are you suuuuuure about this?
Ezzie servants? I thought you servants of TMTH, not of a cat?
The Expanse: I’ve read one of the books and wasn’t a fan; however I’ve seen most of the show and it’s seems pretty good.
Kyle MacLachlan is pretty awesome and Tony’s right that’s he’s been underrated for a ridiculously long time.
Idris Elba: First to address the elephant in the room, good morning Barnabas. Second, I identify as heterosexual but can appreciate the aesthetics of the male form; I just don’t generally care for it. To get to actually talking about Mr. Elba, he’s not to my taste. There’s something almost too intense about his features that turns me off. I can see how somebody else might appreciate this features. Perhaps if I met him in person, where his personality could come into play with the attractiveness equation, then maybe I could be attracted I guess?
Side note: It seems like Tony totally broke William with this conversation.
I don’t care = not having an opinion. And along these lines I think the problem here is William has a strong preference for giving precise, well-thought answers; while Tony is perfectly comfortable with giving off-the-cuff, gut reactions, and/or estimations. Both are valid, but it does lead to a lot of the clashing in your conversations.
Attractiveness of a dog: No, I don’t think most people would make the assumption that Tony claimed.
Cursive Handwriting: It’s about as useful as calligraphy in today’s society. It seems the big two reasons some people are pro-cursive these days: it’s theoretically faster and learning it lets you read old documents.
Electronic signature pads: Most of these things suck, but at least the newer versions show you what you’re writing as you do it. The older ones that didn’t show you anything that were much, much worse.
William vs. Bill: I can imagine it, but it freaks me out. I’m not sure why, as Anthony vs. Tony doesn’t give me any problems. Then again, some people call me Marcus and that shit pisses me off. *shrug*